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2008.08.30

Comments

Russell Parker

As the stand-up comic said 25 years ago..."Hey, they discovered what causes people to be fat...it's fat!"

happyherbivore

Mark, I know you're trying to send out an important message and it's a message I too believe in... but I don't think its very respectful of you to attack Urban Vegan in that manner when there are several blogs on your blog roll whose owners might as well bathe in oil and added fats. How can you support and advertise their blogs and then attack someone else? It's not very consistant.

[First of all, I wasn't attacking her per se... in fact, she sent me a comment discussing the issue and welcoming said discussion. As to others on my blog roll, sure, many use way too much fat, but (a) Urban Vegan said don't be afraid to use oil, it's healthy and we are likely to eat less when a dish is "fatty and rich" (which tipped me over into the "gotta comment on this" frame of mind), and (b) I got word of her post via VegBlogs and it drew attention. Consistency isn't an issue. I've neither the time nor inclination to be the "fat free" policeman. I like to pick'n'choose my posts/comments.]

I too eat a no added fats diet and promote eating whole foods and being healthy about your food choices but I also have friends that don't choose to eat the way I do and sometimes that makes me sad because I know they are hurting themselves but I've also accepted I cannot control what others put in their body, I can only encourage them to be better. Attacking leads to little success but a warm nudge goes a long way.

[I think that's great, and btw, your website, http://happyherbivore.com is cool... I'll be buying your cookbook... that being said, I try hard to rarely bring up major differences in opinion regarding diet with anyone unless asked specifically. Yeah, I've had friends & family killing themselves slowly with their diet and it's hard to watch, but I learned a long time ago while dating a smoker, you can't "talk" people out of their addictions unless they ask for help.

In any case, I don't feel I "attacked" anyone and I apologize if you feel that way. I do very much appreciate your feedback, though. Best regards, Mark]

Kari

My initial reaction when I saw the amount of oil in that recipe was much like yours. A big wow! But to be fair, the recipe didn't say it was one serving. If it served six, that would equal 2 tablespoons oil per serving rather than the entire 3/4 cup. For one serving you'd get 28 grams of fat and 240 calories from the oil, 44% of the daily value for a 2000 calorie diet. Still, I subscribe to the McDougall philosophy and try to try to avoid adding oil (One of these days I may actually stop buying it. Ha.) and would probably have a hard time using 2 tablespoons of oil in a recipe that serves six. But that's just me. Rich, fatty meals? My bowels say no thanks. McDougall's revenge is not fun. I realize everyone doesn't share this philosophy, and I can't force them. Ultimately, people really must be responsible for their own choices and their own health.

[It's hard to know... in general, she's cooking for her "Omniman" husband... I'm thinking it was for four people, as I can't believe anyone would add that much oil for two people... Her latest posts has frying veggies in oil AND drizzling oil over stuffed peppers. Guess she really buys into this 'olive oil is good for you' myth. Unfortunate that her blog is popular and that many will believe it true coming from her.

Even at 28 grams of fat per person, if six servings, that's twice what the big boys recommend.

You had me laughing about the "bowels" comment... yup, learned early in my 27+ years veg career that your body will tell you what's working right, like it or not. I've gotten better at subtle signs and paying attention. Got even more acute when I went vegan.

The only use for oil in this house is to lightly cover a casserole dish or baking sheet/loaf pan. Even then, I try to keep it really minimal, using a paper towel. Don't like sprays as it's too easy to use more than you think.

Thanks much for your feedback! Best to you, Mark]

Veganlicious

I wouldn't get personal, but, yeah, that much oil is pretty disgusting. I just want to know how people can use so much oil and not gain weight like crazy. I could see a few tablespoons a day (including hidden sources), but 3/4 a cup!?

[I agree on disgusting, but don't think that even a few TBS a day is good (McDougall: "Moderation kills...)" ... I've wrestled with this issue recently in terms of pointing out what people are doing with their recipes. I took a lot of heat on a couple of lists pointing out that a 10 egg, 1 cup butter, 2 cups whole milk, plus other things, vegetarian recipe just ain't a good idea.

I don't like to criticize other blogs, but at the same time, Urban Vegan played this as though "hey, it's okay, splurge on the olive oil, have fun!!" and without any more information, many people are likely to believe that's okay.

It's a real problem when people can make unsubstantiated claims about food products or recipe suggestions that are NOT healthy and most people won't bother to research the issue for validity.

Rather than address her blog directly, I opted for doing it on mine. I'm still tempted to send her a note about the problems with her suggestions. Dunno.

As to the weight gain? To me, it's a side issue (albeit important)... it's your cardiovascular system... Essy's studies noted that his patients who couldn't exercise STILL reversed their heart disease by a no-added fat vegan diet. He does advocate exercise, but notes that it's not the solution to preventing heart disease.

I think that if you're using that much oil (urban vegan) in your diet and not gaining weight, then you're spending a lot of time in the gym or buying larger pants suits periodically.

In any case, if Copernicus tells me the Earth goes around the Sun, and Essy says eliminating added fat in your diet will prevent heart disease, I'm inclined to believe them both.

That modern science has NOT been able to reverse heart disease, and Ornish and Essy have, speaks wonders and is hard to argue with. The transition for me, was much easier than going veg, and definitely easier than giving up eating cheese. No urge or taste for fat now, and it's great.]

I remember going to Candle Cafe in NYC and getting tiny little portions of oil-drenched gourmet food... I felt so hungry afterwards, all those calories didn't satiate me at all. But maybe such rich food does satiate some people, I don't know.

[That's bothered me, too... many of the "raw food" recipes I've studied have quite a bit of added oil to them. I think this is a fundamental error... I think more non-added fat food in servings, acclimation over time, provides satiation.

But watching raw foodists add large amounts of oil to recipes really is disconcerting. I love the Candle's recipes in terms of their creativity, but have to figure out how to "de-fat" them. Science is science... we just can't handle that added fat and not have cardiovascular issues. We have to adjust to this new reality.

Yes, years ago, I'd fry tofu marinated in soy sauce and nutritional yeast in olive oil and thought I was doing something healthy AND gourmet (as friends would tell me).

Nope.... big mistake... glad I figured it out before the first heart incident that has not yet happened.

In any case, thanks so much for your feedback! I really enjoy getting some thoughts on my posts and the opportunity to expand on what I've written.

Best to you, Mark]

meredith

Hi -

Two questions:

1) You write that you've been fat-free for a year and a half. I wonder if you've ever considered the effect of your blog and zero tolerance for fat on those with anorexia or other eating disorders.

2) Do you believe in the need for omega-3 and omega-6 fatty acids in the human diet? If so, why not at least refer to them in your posts?

Apologies if you've covered either of these topics before - M

[As to (1), I'm not expert, but I think anorexia and other eating disorders are more psychological, and in the first, involve "purging." In theory, one could eat a very fatty diet and still be anorexic through "forced projectile vomiting."

(2) I get my Omega-3 by periodicallly incorporating ground flaxseed in my diet: in some whole grain pastas, sauces, fruit coblers, breads, even as a thickener for chili! I also use walnuts in a variety of ways. Dr. Essy recommends a TBL of ground flaxseed a day. I'm not worried about it every day, as I think that's more of means for people to remember, e.g., a routine.

I also do a B-12 and multiple vitamin supplement periodically to be on the safe side. I tend to adjust my diet based on season, work load, activity, and diversity of input!

Here's an interesting link about Olive Oil, Ornish, Esselstyn, Omega, etc:

http://www.happyhealthylonglife.com/happy_healthy_long_life/2008/07/im-going-to-miss-my-olive-oil---who-knew-it-wasnt-so-healthy-after-all-drs-esselstyn-ornish-vogel-rudel-did.html

Thanks much for your comment... I'll do something on Omegas in the near future. Right now, off to harvest and plant fall crops... Best regards, Mark ]

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