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Andrew Warner

You shouldn't point fingers and blame someone for hurting the vegan movement so liberally.

[I'm not "hurting the vegan movement." We are killing ourselves with high fat, salt, and sugar vegan foods under the delusion that they are healthy. SOLID research indicates otherwise. I'm pointing out that there is many people don't even bother to care about finding out WHAT is in products they are promoting, but only that it "tastes good" isn't helping anyone be a healthy vegan... let alone, the fat content.]

I imagine many would do the same to you. After all, you cherry-pick minority science and pass it off as inarguable truth. You dig your heels in and mock people who view optimal health, which is far from figured out, differently than yourself.

[20 years of independent peer-reviewed research by two doctors separated by 2000+ miles isn't cherry-picking anything. They are the ONLY people we know of to not only reverse (and presumably prevent) heart disease, and it's thoroughly documented. Furthermore, that added oil (a NON-food) in a meal has been MEASURED (we call that a fact, Jack) to show decreased elasticity of the endothelium AND inflaming the fatty tissue around blood vessels.

That's all been figured out. Added fat/oil in a diet not only has the above issues, but it is THE fuel for plaque formation which causes 90% of the heart attacks/strokes that kill us (vegan or not). What's even more insidious is that your cholesterol levels, your weight, all the conventional measurements of hearth healthy can still be "fine" and that added oil/fat can kill you. First symptom is usually death.

Added fat, sugar, and salt: The Unholy Trio that the processed food companies know is addictive and have taken advantage of that fact.

As to optimal health, I think I've something to contribute. I've had two colds in over 25 years (November 1988, February 1995). That's it. It's not all from my genetic makeup.]

For example, looking back on one of your previous posts, you indicate that eating diets high in fat (of all types) may increase the risk of breast cancer.

While other scientific studies, ( http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/112706748/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0 )show an inverse relationship between breast cancer and olive oil consumption...

[I think the preponderance of research has shown that diets high in fat increase the risk of breast cancer. My mother died of this, btw, and although I don't have all that research available right now, I'm convinced it is so.]

Also, you say things like a wrap with 14g of has a whole day's worth of fat... which is only true with your scientifically unpopular diet of extremely low fat veganism.

[I go with the guys who've reversed heart disease, as well as Fuhrman and Barnard. 14 to 20 grams of fat per day, no added fat. OIL IS NOT A FOOD. It's a highly processed goop. Has no place in a healthy vegan diet. That people have taste addictions to oil, sugar, and salt, is part of the reason for ridiculing the obvious, so-called scientific unpopularity (from mostly carnivores, I'd imagine), and general resistance. I've done what Essy recommended, no longer crave oil or fat.]

You also seem to miss the concept of relativity. For most people, this wrap is a healthy sandwich. And if her goal is to make people eat healthier, then she is probably succeeding by switching them from McDonald's or Quizno's to this vegan wrap.

[Added fat is added fat. I've seen veganized products/meals that are possibly worse than eating meat (not counting Campbell's conclusion on animal protein enabling cancer). Your point is valid, vis-a-vis, switching though, but then, and this is subjective, how can a vegan justifying eating meat to see if it tastes good for their clients/customers/friends and/or family?]

So in closing, yours are not THE facts, jack. Yours are one set of ideas in a sea of many ideas. It serves us all well when we recognize that the facts we choose to accept are not the only facts in the world.

[Different facts have different values. To see them as all equal weight would be absurd. I accept the facts that are proven. The impact of added fat on the cardiovascular system is one of them. Think of it: 400,000 people diet of heart disease-related issues each year in this country. You think that's all from lack of exercise, obesity, and/or eating meat? Nahhh... how do we explain a Jim Fixx (marathon runner) dying of heart attack (a very fit man) or Tim Russert (under doctor's care, all his numbers were fine).]

And while your tone was generally off-putting, mean-spirited and annoying, I appreciate getting to read this post because it helped me learn how to not engage people in discussion over diet. I will now tread very carefully with my vegan ideas. So thanks for that.

[First of all, my tone is my tone. Second, it wasn't a discussion. I think it was more of a mini-rant (hey, you wouldn't believe what I edited out). I give a damn. And when I perceive someone is giving out faulty or misleading nutritional advice, I will say so. It's up to the reader to be discriminate and decide for themselves what is or isn't correct. Sure, sometimes I'm cranky on my blog, sometimes exasperated, sometimes calmer. People can chose to read my posts or not read my posts. I post what I believe in, and yes, sometimes with a little more edge than I probably should, but I get enough encouragement from people to continue to do so, and hope that occasionally there's some wheat in the chaff.

I was told I was going to die over two decades ago, from being (then) a vegetarian by a doctor smoking a cigarette. Our medical history is replete with advice from the medical establishment being wrong, but unfortunately, we find out many years later. What Ornish and Esselstyn have done is not theory, and it is unique. I will continue to promote and endeavor to help people understand (and live with) the implications of their research as long as I can.

And that's no, ahem, illusion.

I do however, appreciate your candor and your comment. You seem quite literate and interesting, and recommend that people check out your website. You seem to be someone I think I'd really enjoy having a beer with (yes, I do drink and alcohol isn't optimal) and having a civilized difference of opinion if the opportunity ever arose.

I do enjoy seeing people speak their minds and you have given me some things to think about. Thanks in return.

Sincere regards, Mark]


Thank you for this post!

[Thank you for your feedback! Best, Mark]

Tracy Warner

"Yet she continues to promote very high fat (oil-based) and saturated fat (e.g., coconut oil based) recipes and products, when such ingredients have been proven to promote heart disease,"

I'm curious why you hate oil so much. Granted, some oils really don't belong in your daily diet, but healthy oils such as olive oil and canola oil in moderation are not bad. The kicker here, as with anything, is moderation. I'd be hard pressed to find any nutritionist who would say it's flat out "bad". Her recipes have never struck me as "high fat" either.

[I don't "hate oil" but recognize it as addictive, not a real food, unnecessary, and contributing (by actual measurements, not just research) to degradation of one's cardiovascular system. There are NO healthy oils. A myth, propagated by so-called experts who think slowing down the progression of a disease (heart disease) is the answer. Instead, stop with the added oil and you can eliminate the disease and the accumulated insults to your body over time (usually culiminating with serious issues in you late 40s ad thereon, regardless of exercise, cholesterol levels, etc.

Yes, not all her recipes are high fat, some are quite interesting. I take offense to recommending products without knowing what's in them, their health impact, and all for the cause of vegan taste. We have to get past this taste thing.]

I checked out your link and it didn't really offer me much insight. Cutting fat completely out of your diet seems unnecessary. One of the studies you sited had people eat 50 grams of fat in one sitting -- how could that possibly translate into NEVER eating oil? All your studies seem to imply that we shouldn't eat a lot in one sitting. To that I say "Duh?"

[Don't know which one you are referring to (typing with one hand here). Maybe instead of the persepective of why cutting out the fat, WHY add the fat to your food to being with? Oil is NOT a real food. It's a highly processed slurry of goop, removed from all the good things around it when found (as, say, olives) in nature.

Agreement with "Duh."]

And P.S. Taste testing non-vegan food makes you a crappy vegan. I second that. And that wrap, I agree, seemed unhealthy.

[Yeah, that's hard to "wrap" my brain around... taste-testing meat-based wraps/food to see if they're okay for one's clients/friends/whatever. The nutritional analysis should be enough. A recent commenter (still working on response) pointed out that those might be transitional for meat-eaters... a good point, but do you need to taste them? Yucko....

Anyway, thanks much for your feedback. Made me re-think some things and that's always appreciated.

Nice website (and very intriguing husband)... Mark]

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